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I love libertarian philosophy, as I have stated in blogs previous, but I think there is a huge problem.

I was on the Nolan Chart (http://www.nolanchart.com/index.php) site earlier today, not in relation to this, but based on some of the comments there is a need for this, and there and the conversation that this blog is a topic, is happening.

It has to do with the insistence on putting everyone else, into groups.

Oh you said something wrong, you are not a libertarian! You do not believe exactly what I do on this issue, oh you are not a libertarian!

This is not helpful, and this strikes me as something that Progressives do.  To worry about what everyone else is believing and not tending to yourself.

With regards to Libertarians and Libertarianism this issue really comes out in foreign policy, and foreign ‘adventures.’

It is almost line by line, on many sites that I have looked at, that the attitude is if you are for a foreign ‘intervention’ then you are not a libertarian.

I believe that there is a right way to fight a war for helping nations to achieve democracy and a wrong way.

It is a valuable conversation to have, in fact there are few more important for this country given the political climate.

But for a segment of the people to not allow anyone in their ‘club’ just because they do not see eye to eye with you one hundred percent is not the right way to go.

Especially when according to the Advocates for Self Government, and the founder of the Libertarian Party itself, David Nolan, the essentials of the Libertarian Movement have nothing to do with foreign policy or wars in foreign lands.

They are:

1. You own yourself.

2. The Right to Self Defense.

3. No ‘criminal possession’ laws.

4. No taxes on Productivity.

5.  A Sound Money System.

Source: http://www.theadvocates.org/library/essence-of-liberty.html

So Libertarianism if it had a litmus test this would be it, and it has nothing to do with foreign policy.

In fact that is one of the things that is so beautiful, I think, on Libertarian philosophy;  that it focuses so much on freedom and domestic policy.  Not on Foreign policy.  Domestically is where the Libertarian movement strikes gold.

Because I supported and still support the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, but that does not make me any less of a libertarian on domestic issues than anyone else.

Now, there is a conversation to be had for how Foreign Adventures effect domestic policy, spending, deficits, and our standing in the world.

Here  again, that is not the end all be all of Libertarians.

Lets respect others opinions and engage in a conversation of liberty loving people everywhere and come up with the solutions to the problems we face as a people, no matter label, or nit-picking ideology.

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8 Comments

  1. Seriously you are probably going to hit me for saying this….but having been around awhile….to me Libertarianism is just another word for the Hippie movement of the 60’s with a facelift!! :O YOU basically are taking a hippie and putting him in business casual …taking away the illegal drugs and substituting them with prescription drugs and cutting the hair short so they will “blend in and look professional” and presto!!…. You have yourself a modern hippie ala a Libertarian! 😛 So you have people who are advocating for freedoms and rights for everyone and really just rallying for peace and love and domestic stability. I just find it funny that societal movements definitely do happen cyclically and this movement of Libertarianism to me so closely relates to that of the Hippie Movement of the 60’s and 70’s. It just has a new face with some new values.
    This is why their foreign policy is so weak because if you look at the core they are for self preservation and hey lets’ just all be happy and get along. You go do your thing and I’ll do mine and everyone will get along just fine.

    Well unfortunately this is not really ever practical or realistic. But it’s nice to think about.

    I could be way off…and I started reading up on the Hippie movement again just to see some of the similarities because I find societal trends to be fascinating. I know….I am going to catch hell for this one!! *runs and ducks flying objects* 😛

    • No I will not hit you but you are dead wrong. The hippies, whether they started out this way, or that they eventually became this, wanted hyper government control. They were looking for leadership and looking for ways to get a ‘just’ government. They wanted a government who allowed them all their rights, but protected them from the ‘man’ and did not fight in any foreign wars. Now sure there is probably that element that people come and say ‘oooohhh free drugs man’. And free love and all the rest but you will hardly find that to be mainstream. Because it is not main stream American. And if we are witnessing a main stream American uprising that is Libertarian at least at its core then it is quite the opposite of the hippy movement. No drugs are being associated with the a Tea Parties or any other movement currently out there. And you have Glenn Beck, Judge Andrew Neapalotano (forgive me) that are out there and they are not advocating this, simply a return to the original intent, because none of these frakin laws exisisted way back when. I mean seriously, does Beck, the Judge, John Stossel, and David Nolan look like a hippy? Do you for that matter? Especially considering that you scored in the same area I did 😛

        • squirrely1
        • Posted March 18, 2010 at 9:24 pm
        • Permalink

        Calm down….geeze I was half joking…I say half joking because I do see some similarities….however, I am not saying the Libertarians are the modern hippies I was just being facetiously funny there. I am not accusing this movement of doing drugs I am just saying they stand for similar things…and the hippies were NOT for big government control….look again….they were for less government they fought against “the establishment” They felt we were becoming a fascist nation and they protested against that and the war. Plus I can see Beck in a tie died t-shirt, ratty jeans with a peace pipe….he would be awfully cute!! 😉 😀 *snort*

        • colfoley
        • Posted March 18, 2010 at 9:26 pm
        • Permalink

        but then they became the establishment

        • squirrely1
        • Posted March 18, 2010 at 11:53 pm
        • Permalink

        But isn’t that how every generation works?? 😛 😛

        • colfoley
        • Posted March 18, 2010 at 11:53 pm
        • Permalink

        not inherently

  2. Note: NONE of this response is about foreign policy.

    Libertarianism is something I either really like or absolutely can’t stand at times. From what I see, there is idealistic libertarianism and then there’s functional, practical libertarianism. The former irks me to no end sometimes because though it works on paper and in someone’s mind, it just doesn’t work in the real world when you start having to evaluate things like individual search and seizure laws. There are dozens that officers have to learn in California.

    Example: No criminal possession laws (?!)

    This is a slippery slope if I’ve ever seen one. Though Glenn Beck, David Nolan and other mainstream libertarians don’t support drugs, too many libertarians do. No criminal possession laws is an example of purely idealistic libertarianism that should NOT be made into reality. If Nolan and these others want to strive and lobby for that ideal, fine. But I’ll be damned if I’m going to witness a certain idea that will throw 300 million people into chaos and handcuff law enforcement personnel from doing their job become reality. The no possession ideal WILL cause criminality to grow exponentially and make it virtually impossible to fight it. Foley, you may have faith in libertarians and the public in general to act with common sense with the possession issue but I do not. There has been too much bloodshed over drugs. I have witnessed too much violence over it. Blanket removal of criminal possession laws validates a destructive lifestyle and I’ll NEVER support it.

    Another point: Libertarians seem so anti-government that they would leave law enforcement in the hands of public citizens. No, no, no, no, no, no, NO!!! It almost seems like certain libertarians would do away with the police altogether if they had the chance. 😛 There is a very good reason why people receive training to act with legal authority above private citizens. Private citizens CANNOT be trusted to act to interpret laws impartially, especially when lives are on the line. That is vigilantism plain and simple. Private militias are not an answer either. Why? Because they are PRIVATE and WILL have their own agenda that will not be impartial. Private militias have the possibility of descending into vigilante-type vendettas.

    If private militias and blanket elimination of criminal possession laws are big hallmarks of libertarianism then this movement ain’t for me. I’m not so anti-government that I’ll make it impossible for officers to make any arrests or eliminate criminality.

    However, I’m not an authoritarian either. I believe that someone has to watch the watchmen. Law enforcement personnel must observe proper due process and not abuse the authority given to them. They must act honorably and fairly to protect citizens, not to bully them. This also means strict adherence to wiretapping procedures, proper acquisition of warrants, and sound investigative work that will yield solid, lasting convictions of the guilty while simultaneously protecting and exonerating someone who is innocent if they’ve been falsely accused.

    This, to me, is solid practical libertarianism. Let’s face it. You’re not exactly free if have to be constantly concerned with criminals abusing the freedom you’re giving them. Therein lies a different type of tyranny than the one libertarians oppose: The tyranny of the criminal constantly victimizing the innocent.

    • Well…..:P

      With the Criminal Possession laws I do recognize the slippery slope. Because of the danger of the harm that you can do with the rest of society. And while I trust the people to act with mostly common sense, I do not trust everyone else to. I think that if you encourage people to have common sense, they will be more apt to act on it. However, for the mot part it i not a Federal issue on drug abuse or not, it is one for the state to deal with unless they cross state lines.

      As for the police, well I do not know of a single Libertarian that supports that. Remember I think it is easy to confuse Libertarianism with Anarchism. However, my response to the question is one of degree, and one of budget. A State can usually afford the police that it can afford, and the answer is as much private security as one can get away with. While there needs to be police to protect regular Citizens, I see no problem with private security guarding buisnesses with clear regulations, governed by that buisness and by law, and I see no problem with private citizens protecting their property.

      But on the issue at hand I do consider myself practical, on the issue of drugs for instance, and while I would certainly like to see ultimate freedom on that issue I just do not think its practical. But I will, with this new perspective, always try and find the way that people can have that freedom while protecting the rest of society. I also think that there is something to be said for what Beck said about the 9.12, you will never agree with everything, or never be fully convinced of it, if you can agree with roughly 70 percent, then you are probably at least an outside member of the movement, except these are essentials. But I have an agreement of 4/3.5 out of the five. I also have a problem with the full implications of ‘to own yourself’, with regards to prostitution. But again if I really am a Libertarian I must at least consider the possibility.


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